Da Goddess

People who profess a love of communism only want communism for other people, not for themselves. Those who ascribe to communism believe that with just the right application of laws, mankind could live in utopia here on earth, rather than waiting for heaven to come.

Communism sounds great but when applied to the failed hearts of mankind, it inevitably leads to tyranny. The true attraction of communism by many people is nothing else except it gives these weak people a chance to impose their will on the rest of the world.

In my own experience, I never once met a communist when I was a " worker". Communists were to a man, the wealthy spoiled children of the elites. They talk about rights and civil justice, and then become a part of the biggest creation of tyranny in the history of mankind.

I am here Diosa. Waiting for the fireworks to begin.

Although i have to say, it is almost impossible to have a reasoned dialogue or debate with a person claiming to be a communist of Marxist or socialist. And it's not because these ideologies dont have any aspects worthy of some merit in one way or another. It's because of two things.

First, the person on the pro-communism side is usually not truthful with themselves. Communism has been responsible for the death of hunreds of millions of people. Bring that up in any debate on this subject and there is no argument made agaisnt it other than the boilerplate preachings of the evil imperialists and capitalists and yada yada yada. Bring up the fact that each year thousands of Cubans risk their lives to cross the Florida Straights on pieces of wood and you get the evils of Americna foreign policy on Cuba diatribe. Not to mention the evil anti-castro extremists living in exile here in Miami and how they incite these people top flee their workers paradise. You cant pick and choose only the good points and ignore the bad. They have to all be weighed in together.

Second, communist ideology is inherently flawed at its very core. It goes against the most basic principle of human nature: the individual. We dont all think alike, we are all sentient beings with the capacity to reason for ourselves. Collectivism and communism simply wont ever work because of that.

Tell Carl Id be happy to spring for one way tickets to La Habana for him. I bet he'd last a week.

"the person on the pro-communism side is usually not truthful with themselves"

I was struck by a few things while participating in my first PW event, Operation Pity Pablo.

The barking moonbats were rallying on a beautiful day in San Diego, where every last one of them enjoys some of the best a free country with a free economy has to offer.

The anti-war, anti-America, anti-Bush, anti-military, anti-Capitalist, pro-Communist, pro-revolution rally took place between a military museum, a Navy base and a Federal Building, in a public park! And NO ONE STOPPED IT! One need not go so far as Cuba to see such a rally suppressed by the government: the European Court (where my cousin served as a judge at the time, I'm shamed to admit) determined that the government "can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures." See http://www.americanoutlook.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article_detail&id=1124 Yet, these nutcases are claiming that they're living in a fascist country?!?!

Finally, the obvious failure of Communism, amid incredible repression and mass slaughter around the world during the 20th Century, is merely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the distance between these people and obvious, objective, simple reality. Last Saturday, a woman screamed at me that "they" stole the presidential election and "they" took over the country and ten Senate seats, "this administration has killed 15 million people," and "our military crippled her friends in FDNY." She was carrying a sign that read, "Kerry Won, Bush is Hitler." I asked her if she has ever known anyone who experienced Hitler's regime. She said, "No, have you?"

I think the closest thing to successful communism that I've ever heard of might have been some of the farming communities in what is now Israel (I'm not an expert on the matter though). Those probably however were the small groups that you were refering.

One problem I see with the system Marx wrote about is this "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Well then.. the best producers often also have modest needs.. and those with the greatest need (real or perceived) sometimes are the worst producers. Now unless you have a personal reason (ie caring for someone close to you) you have a system where a small percentage of the population supports a larger percentage... human's are not apt to permit that to go on... without outside control (ie the party).

There are many Leftists, in love with the ideas of Marx and the thrilling political activism of Lenin, and some Communists, hardcore, who teach at our most important public and private universities. And their views are unopposed. They do not have anyone as sensible and bright as colleagues or as students, as you, dear Goddess, to puncture their rhetoric and pretentions as their teach generation and generation of impressionable classes.

I have so much to say to this.... but no time to say it.

As quick as I can ramble them off:

1) the person above who unequivocably states that "Communism has been responsible for the death of hunreds of millions of people." is misinformed at best and dead wrong at worst. Communism, in and of itself, would NEVER be responsible for the death of ANYONE. In fact, it would take the liberal utopia that is modern America and take it about 10 steps further.... "one for all and all for one" and that happy-horseshit. Corrupted by a political system, where you HAVE to have someone at the top and doubled by the realizations that Joanie mentioned (that this type of system can't work on THAT kind of scale) and the natural inclination to HOLD ONTO power once it is achived, THAT is what kills people.

2) Communism, in it's purist form, would be the ideal situtaion. There is a completely level playing field and noone is rewarded more than the guy next to him. Conversely, noone is punished more, either. HOWEVER, the real-world application is flawed at best. First of all, there is always "that guy" who works just a little harder than the rest. In a communist society, he gets nothing in return. He does all of the work and gets the same reward as the guy who was out back smoking a cigarette. He becomes frustrated and is beaten down. Eventually, he gives up and does just enough to get by. When multiplied by the thousands of people caught up in that system, society dies. Creativity is stifled and repressed, innovation dies and advances disappear. Progress stops and regression begins. If you read any history of the Soviet Union, you'll know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Take that a few steps further... read a history of communist Poland, Germany. Fuck... ANY communist system that has reformed or collapsed. In fact, if you do a little homework and check out where China has been headed since Chairman Mao took power, you'll see the proof of the theory.

3) It's extremely EASY for a pussy in America to claim to be a communist. A communist in America is nothing but an even further leftist liberal. I've yet to meet one of the pussies who's willing to give away his possessions and move to a communist country. Furthermore, I wouldn't really expect them to. They're under the flawed assumption that they could make communism work in the American system. In other words, they'd take the wealth, innovation and working parts and spread them out to the "less fortunate" amongst us. They're liberals who want an ideal liberal society, NOT a communist one. In fact, from those that I've known (and I'm not talking about Carl or your friend, since I didn't bother to read the conversation with Carl and I've never met you're friend, I'm talking about the idiots I've known who were dumb enough to state that they're communists...), they're usually psyudo-intellectuals, college students or the well-to-do who feel guilty for what they have and what other "less fortunate" people don't so they want to assuge their guilt by claiming to WANT to spread it all out "equally." NOT that I've ever seen one of these student/communists or particularly the upper-middle class or lower upper class/communists ACTUALLY give thier stuff up and go live in a commune. Sure, they give a few dollars in the poor-bin or contribute to the church charity and some of them are actually quite generous. That doesn't mean that they are really communists. They are priviledged pussies who feel guilty for their privilege and want to lesson the weight on their concious.

OK, I've rambled enough... bring on the flaming...

Larry,

I see you've read animal Farm.

Jim,

You'll get no flames from me, well said.

Carl? Where are you? You wanted discussion...you got discussion.

Damn, Joanie! I'm impressed. Very good rant.

To Da Goddess,

Thank you for your honest opinion regarding our convo on Saturday. I had left that day with the impression that at least some of the misconception you conveyed about communism were cleared up. I see now that I was deluding myself. (((Sigh!!!)))

Anywho, I would like to start by saying it is quite obvious that the above posters know little about communism, or least communism unfiltered through capitalist dogma.

One of the more humorous concepts espoused above is that one has to live in a "communist country" to be considered a "real" communist. For your edification a communist is one who advocates communist concepts and ideals. For example, (since Da Goddess claims I lacked tangibles) Fidel Castro was a communist BEFORE the revolution happened.

Another misconception is the old and tired lie "If you have two guys in a factory producing widgets and one guy produces X amount of widgets while the other guy produces X-plus amount of widgets, they both get the same amount of benefit. Therefore there is no incentive." Without addressing the utter simplicity of such an argument, I can say that this has no place in Marxist theory (or reality for that matter) whatsoever. If you go to work in a factory and you don't produce what you are suppose to produce, YOU WILL LOSE YOUR JOB, period. If you prove to have talent and ability beyond those whom you work with, you will be rewarded accordingly (read: promoted)and encouraged to seek a position/profession that best suits your ability/ambitions.

In conclusion, I would like to take Sr. Prieto up on his offer for one way tickets to Cuba. That is if you are serious of course. I was once on the Rick Roberts show and he offered me tickets as well but I found it was all for the benefit of his listening audience. In fact, I was on his show a number of times and each time afterwards he renewed his promise for tickets to Cuba and yet, here I am. So, if your serious, email me @ muhcarl@cox.net

P.S. I think it deserves mentioning that most of us, as a knee-jerk reaction to the discovery of communism (unfiltered communism that is) develope a desire to move to a communist state. Some of us have. There are many reasons why we don't do so in great numbers. The prominent reason is that if we want to realize the goal of world wide communism, we have to start in the seat of capitalism. This is basic Marxist theory.

Geez Da Goddess!!!

Give a brother time to respond...LOL!

Seriously, though I am a very busy person these days so please be patient with me.

Thanks.

the thing to remember is that Communism is basically a religon- a mystery cult to be exact, complete with a Son (Stalin/Mao depending on orientation), TWO Fathers (Lenin and Marx), and an unlimited supply of demons and devils (Trotsky and all of us happy capitalist devils and devilettes). Trying to get a Communist to explain why his system fails at every test- or why he/she is still HERE in Babylon instead of maxing Pyongyang or Havana- is like asking any OTHER millenialist fanatic why the Millenia still hasn't come yet: you'll get some predictible response about how "the unbelievers aren't ready for the truth" and "you've got to read the Holy Book to understand", but no real answers that make sense in consensual reality. You'll also be told that the reason they are still in Capitalist Hell instead of having crawled under the barbwire (hopped onto a 767, same difference)into Socialist Heaven is that they are making a bold and principled sacrifice to create a ministry and bring the Truth to the barbarian hordes... and that freedom from repression, plentiful food, cable TV and free speech have nothing- NOTHING, I tell you!- to do with it.
Best thing to do is just let Communists worship their gods in peace- but never turn your back on them, as tens of millions of dead worldwide can attest that their cult practices human sacrifice.

Larry,

I see you've read animal Farm.

Jim,
=========
I like to read...I think I was seven or eight.. when I first read it thinking it might be like watership down.... :) Reread it since though I don't recall how long its been. Fortunately it was after I started on the Heinlein Juveniles ;)

One of the more humorous concepts espoused above is that one has to live in a "communist country" to be considered a "real" communist. For your edification a communist is one who advocates communist concepts and ideals.

Advocating concepts and ideals you have never truly lived under is hypocritical at best. Preach it to the Cuban farmer who busts his hump year round to provide his quota produce for the communist state and then has whatever he grew above his quota destroyed by that very same governemnet because, you know, communists individuals (an oxymoron, I know) cant have more than their peers.

Another misconception is the old and tired lie "If you have two guys in a factory producing widgets and one guy produces X amount of widgets while the other guy produces X-plus amount of widgets, they both get the same amount of benefit. Therefore there is no incentive." Without addressing the utter simplicity of such an argument, I can say that this has no place in Marxist theory (or reality for that matter) whatsoever. If you go to work in a factory and you don't produce what you are suppose to produce, YOU WILL LOSE YOUR JOB, period. If you prove to have talent and ability beyond those whom you work with, you will be rewarded accordingly (read: promoted)and encouraged to seek a position/profession that best suits your ability/ambitions.

In an ideal world perhaps these statements of yours would hold true. But we live in the real world with real people. Fact of the matter is that production in just about everything in Cuba is down simply because they get their measly 10 dollars a month regardless of whether they work or not. It breeds laziness and discontent. Here's an example:

I have a family member who went to Cuba to visit a dying parent. One evening at the hotel this person called on room service for a cafe con leche and an orange juice. A little while later the orange juice was brought up to the room, but no cafe con leche. He called up room service and asked about the cafe con leche. The response from the worker? "Sorry, we couldnt get you the cafe con leche because the person that warms the milk is already gone for the day."

that is a true story and one, i am absulotely sure, is among many many other such situations lived in communist cuba.

It's nice to sit here in the US (or whatever other free country) and expound on the virtues of commuinist ideology when you dont have to live the communist REALITY. They are two separate and distinct things.

And Carl, if I thought for one minute, you would actually pack your bags, give away all your cash and possesions and move to Cuba to live like a native, I would overnight you your ticket to Havana without a second thought. I suspect, however, that your reality is not ready, nor willing, to make such a sacrifice for your ideology.

Jim S.,

the person above who unequivocably states that "Communism has been responsible for the death of hunreds of millions of people." is misinformed at best and dead wrong at worst. Communism, in and of itself, would NEVER be responsible for the death of ANYONE. In fact, it would take the liberal utopia that is modern America and take it about 10 steps further.... "one for all and all for one" and that happy-horseshit. Corrupted by a political system, where you HAVE to have someone at the top and doubled by the realizations that Joanie mentioned (that this type of system can't work on THAT kind of scale) and the natural inclination to HOLD ONTO power once it is achived, THAT is what kills people.

Thats semantics before meaning. Truth of the matter is that communist leaders killed millions to maintain their communist ideology and stifle dissent. That, in and of itself, makes the communist ideology complicit in genocide.

Advocating concepts and ideals you have never truly lived under is hypocritical at best.

Huh? So those who were advocating, let’s say, capitalism for example, being that they never lived under a capitalist state were hypocrites? Or those pioneers who created new ideas or new concepts were hypocrites because it didn’t exist BEFORE they created it? Please expound.

Look, my ideas about communism according to Marxist theory are not only based on my study (beyond cursory understanding) of said subject, but also my countless interactions with Cuban people (who live IN Cuba) as well as the countless American who travel to Cuba in defiance of the blockade. As you may know, or not know, there was an international convention held in Tijuana the weekend before last in support of Cuba. Cubans (who live IN Cuba) traveled to Mexico and gave wonderful presentations about labor situations in Cuba. I had conversations with Cubans (who live IN Cuba) about their country and needless to say, they paint a very different picture of Cuba.

Preach it to the Cuban farmer who busts his hump year round to provide his quota produce for the communist state and then has whatever he grew above his quota destroyed by that very same governemnet because, you know, communists individuals (an oxymoron, I know) cant have more than their peers.

I'll reserve comment on this statement until you provide proof that a country struggling to provide food for its citizens is actually destroying crops. Please provide a name, province or some other identify information that I can independently verify with my sources in Cuba.

Question, if a farmer actually produces more than the “quota” set by the government in order to make a profit, who will he sell his crop to?

In an ideal world perhaps these statements of yours would hold true. But we live in the real world with real people. Fact of the matter is that production in just about everything in Cuba is down simply because they get their measly 10 dollars a month regardless of whether they work or not. It breeds laziness and discontent.

Ok. Name an industry that production is “down” in. And name what it is “down” from.

Here's an example:
I have a family member who went to Cuba to visit a dying parent. One evening at the hotel this person called on room service for a cafe con leche and an orange juice. A little while later the orange juice was brought up to the room, but no cafe con leche. He called up room service and asked about the cafe con leche. The response from the worker? "Sorry, we couldnt get you the cafe con leche because the person that warms the milk is already gone for the day."
that is a true story and one, i am absulotely sure, is among many many other such situations lived in communist cuba.

I can also give accounts of similar occurrences in capitalist America, occurrences much more atrocious than warm milk.

It's nice to sit here in the US (or whatever other free country) and expound on the virtues of commuinist ideology when you dont have to live the communist REALITY. They are two separate and distinct things.

The vast majority of Cubans (who live IN Cuba) beg to differ with you.

And Carl, if I thought for one minute, you would actually pack your bags, give away all your cash and possesions and move to Cuba to live like a native, I would overnight you your ticket to Havana without a second thought. I suspect, however, that your reality is not ready, nor willing, to make such a sacrifice for your ideology.

Come on Sr. Prieto! You know that people don’t have to give up their private possessions to live in Cuba. You know that 85% of the people OWN their own homes. Stop playing to the crowd.

I am not asking you to think about what I would and wouldn’t do. I’m asking you to do what you said you would do. You offered to provide me tickets to Cuba. I am willing to take and use the one-way tickets to Cuba.

I will provide Carl Muhammad and his immediate family members with one-way tickets to Cuba:
YES____ NO_____

Thats semantics before meaning. Truth of the matter is that communist leaders killed millions to maintain their communist ideology and stifle dissent. That, in and of itself, makes the communist ideology complicit in genocide.

Just wondering if you felt the same way about Christianity and capitalism since, using your logic, they are responsible for the death of 10's (if not 100's) of millions of Native Americans and Africans

Carl,

Mexicana Air has a flight 1027 departing Tijuana for Mexico City at 1:20am on January 20. From there, you can transfer to flight 321 to Havana, arriving at 3:40pm.

If you're serious, I'm sure we could take up a collection for a one-way ticket in coach -- total cost: $456.38.

Passport application fees, transportation to TJ, accomodations in Havana, and return fare (should you lose your faith in communism) would be on you.

Still interested?

Huh? So those who were advocating, let’s say, capitalism for example, being that they never lived under a capitalist state were hypocrites? Or those pioneers who created new ideas or new concepts were hypocrites because it didn’t exist BEFORE they created it? Please expound.

Communism is hardly a new comcept, and is one that has been proven, time and again, does not and cannot work. Perhaps you should study some history to go along with all the theory. Again, stop preaching the ideologyy and get going on the actual PRACTICE. Put your money where your mouth is. Pack your bags, pick up the kids and wife and hop on a plane to Cuba or China, then ask for political asylum because communism is the best ideology in the world. Dont talk, DO IT. If not, you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

my countless interactions with Cuban people (who live IN Cuba) as well as the countless American who travel to Cuba in defiance of the blockade. As you may know, or not know, there was an international convention held in Tijuana the weekend before last in support of Cuba. Cubans (who live IN Cuba) traveled to Mexico and gave wonderful presentations about labor situations in Cuba. I had conversations with Cubans (who live IN Cuba) about their country and needless to say, they paint a very different picture of Cuba.

Funny how every single foreigner that has "countless" interactions with Cubans (living IN Cuba) never hears any of the complaints and gripes and anti-castro anti-revolution sentiment these same Cuban express on a daily basis to other Cubans. What you witnessed in Tijuana is just another conglomeration or communist party members expounding on the glories and wonders of the revolution and attemptimng to hoodwink the world and even, perhaps, fulfill fidels dream of exporting his revolucion. Why weren't any of the countless dissidents allowed to go and speak? Why arent people like Oscar Elias Biscet and Rivero allowed to go and speak their opinions and thoughts? Tell me, why is that? And tell me, why are there prisoners of conscience on the island? And why is the European union, amnesty international, the UN and countless other human rights organizations always crying foul at the Cuban government?

Please man, if you dont touch bottom, dont jump into the water.

I'll reserve comment on this statement until you provide proof that a country struggling to provide food for its citizens is actually destroying crops. Please provide a name, province or some other identify information that I can independently verify with my sources in Cuba.

Question, if a farmer actually produces more than the “quota” set by the government in order to make a profit, who will he sell his crop to?

This is RAMPANT in cuba. i suggest you venture
over to Cubanet or Net for Cuba international where independent journalists - actual Cubans living IN the island - report on these argicultural stupidities on a daily basis.

And most farmers that attempt to grow over their quota dont usually do it to sell for profit. They do it to FEED thier families and perhaps barter their produce for other necessities such as soap or oil or gas or even feminine napkins where Cuban women have to get on a list to get their allotment of.

But, if you must have proof, so that you can verify with your "sources" in Cuba, here:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/feb01/21e1.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jul00/13e4.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y02/jul02/03e1.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y02/jan02/22e2.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/mar00/08e3.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/dec00/07e3.htm

And the doozie here:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/jan04/12e2.htm

Ok. Name an industry that production is “down” in. And name what it is “down” from.

Sugar. Cuba now IMPORTS 70% of its sugar. Look it up. The once leader of the worlds sugar industry is now having to import sugar for its own needs. Those agrarian reforms your comrades Che and fidel put into place didnt work. And never will.

I can also give accounts of similar occurrences in capitalist America, occurrences much more atrocious than warm milk.

Yes, but the debate at hand here is the lauded communist ideoloy and the workers paradise, remember?

The vast majority of Cubans (who live IN Cuba) beg to differ with you.

Oh, really carl? Let me ask you, how many Cubans have you actually ever met, in person, in your life? How many have you spoken to? You think it's more than me? This "vast" majority of yours is nothing but boilerplate leftist argument. It is incredibly arrogant of you to even suggest that you know more about cuba and her government than an actual Cuban. And, quite honestly, if I had a dime for each time Ive had to have this same argument, this same debate, with some proponent of castros failed ideological government i would be able to buy Cuba by now.

The plain and simple fact is that you dont see many - scratch that - you dont see ANY people actully fleeing TOWARDS Cuba now do you? Yourself included.

Vast majority my patoot. Why do you think that Cubans arent allowed to travel freely abroad? Because thered be no one left on the island save for fidel, raul and alarcon and all thier little images of Che.

Come on Sr. Prieto! You know that people don’t have to give up their private possessions to live in Cuba. You know that 85% of the people OWN their own homes. Stop playing to the crowd.

Carl, I dont know where you get your information from but, um, there is no such thing of private ownership of anything in Cuba. It all belongs to the state. ALL OF IT. the government tells you where you can live, who you can live with and for how long you can live there. And even a mere whisper of any dissent or opinion contrary to the official government policy gets you booted out of your home, fired from your job, ration card seized and perhaps even encarcerated.

I'll tell you what, renounce your American citizenship and passport (if, indeed you are an American), go to a Cuban interests section and apply for political asylum on the island, show me proof, and I will provide you with one way, non transferable tickets to Havana.

Carl, your take on Cuba and communism is naive at best, myopically inane at worst. I dont believe you have any "sources" in Cuba - other than perhaps Granma, the party rag and the internet, which, incidentally is not allowed to be used by the "vast" majority of Cubans. or maybe you are just one of those "useful idiots" Stalin always mentioned.

It is truly frustrating to witness this adoration of an ideology and system of govenrment that systematically and historially has done everything in its power to suppress the individual and his or her basic human right of freedom. Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of every single kind is stifled in Cuba. you know it, I know it, fidel knows it, and believe me, that "vast" majority of cubans knows it too.

Absolutely!! I am very interested! However, if you are serious then you would know that to move to an entirely new country would take more than a month to plan. So if you are serious about taking up a collection please include collection for 7 family members plus travel expenses, money for passports, etc.

Email me at muhcarl@cox.net for more details.

If Cuba is such a wonderful place to live.. why do so many Cubians risk their lives to leave?

Carl,

I'm not a charity. You have to do some of the work yourself.

A one-way coach ticket to Havana is a simple thing. Seven such tickets, plus passport fees and "traveling expenses?" No deal.

Maybe one of your friends would like to take us up on the deal -- Pete? Cecil? Dave?

Anyone out there want a one-way ticket to Havana?

Scott,

God forbid a communist would actually have to work for something on his own! That's blasphemy. Like a true communist Carl wants the people to pay for his trip.

Not that he'd go and use the ticket and actually stay there. I give him a week, two tops.

I am vastly unequipped to add much to this conversation, especially since Larry and Val have said what I know to be true. I have, however, been to a country that became independent after the breakup of the Soviet Union - Moldova (it's between Ukraine and Romania). The devestation of poverty left by the Soviet communists is incredible. Even today, there is no running water in most of the places we went. Living conditions are terrible, mainly because THE GOVERNMENT owned everything and taught the people nothing about how to use the vast natural resources of the country. Because the people did not own the land and only produced what the government told them to, the people have nothing and no knowledge ofhow to improve their lives. Going to Moldova today is like going to the set of Fiddler on the Roof, only it isn't a movie set, it's reality. We are helping them now to learn irrigationk, farming, etc. - they want to survive on their own, they just need to learn how. (My apologies for going off on Moldova - it's near and dear to my heart and is, in my opinion, the perfect example of the failure of communism.)

So, Carl, I can't quote you chapter and verse on how pathetic communism is and how it truly does kill people by its very nature, but I have seen first-hand the devestation it brings. Have you?

Also, I'll bet you those people you saw in Mexico were not with their families - I'm sure they were back in Cuba just to make sure the speakers would return.

And, I agree with the other posters: when you denounce your citizenship (and that of each member of your family whether they like it or not) and sell all of your personal possessions (because why should you start off in your new life with gifts from America?) then we will definitely contribute towards your new "life" in Cuba. In fact, I'd drive you to the airport.

Val & Da Goddess -

Make this clown put his butt where his mouth is - sounds like he's wanting to take the entire (immediate) family, though - I wonder whether or not his spouse/kids/etc. are o.k. with this.

If you can actually get him to commit (he will probably pull out for some reason - there's all kinds of excuses he can use), I don't think you'd have much difficulty in taking up a collection. To dump a silly-ass Lefty like this one, I would certainly be willing to put some money in the pot!!

Maybe you could start up a standing fund - call it something like "Free Fares For Fools", or "Worker's Paradise Trust Fund".

Don't let him up for air on this one - he's "studied" so extensively about the Cuban Commie "paradise", there should be no particular reason why he can't ship out to Havana not later than, say, the end of February. No "traveling expenses" should be involved - after all, if he's going there and not coming back, he could pretty easily liquidate whatever he owns here (house, car[s], etc.), and cover his own "expenses" - once he's there, the "worker's paradise" should be more than happy to accommodate a "true believer" like him.

It's really very simple - all he has to do is renounce his U.S. citizenship, in writing, post-dated to the date of his arrival in Cuba, duly witnessed and certified, and hand over copies to the person who gives him his ticket at the airport. When that becomes officially recognized, his passport would become invalid, anyway.

Carl,

Arturo Sandoval, a brilliant trumpet player, defected from Cuba some years ago. This man was the protege of the late Dizzy Gillespie, and would have been, in your estimation, "rewarded accordingly (read: promoted)and encouraged to seek a position/profession that best suits [his] ability/ambitions." Why did he leave, then? Greed? He would have been *well* taken care of had he played along (no pun intended) with Castro. Lack of care for his fellow human? Why has he made so much of an effort to improve the lives of Cuban immigrants then?

You say that capitalism has ruined the communist ideal. You're right! The idea that a person can do whatever they want with their god-given talents appeals to people. Not because they are greedy, not because they are shallow, but because they simply want to live their own lives without someone telling them how.

If you espouse communism out of concern for the poor and the weak, I can respect that. But I would remind you that in a capitalist society, this is still allowed - it's just not required. A rich person with a caring heart can do just as much, if not more, for a poor person willing to work.

I would further remind you that a communist model would only work if people were all self-sacrificing, noble, honest and generous, and all willing to work towards a common goal. The snag is, if entire nations were composed of people such as this, we wouldn't need communism in the first place.

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."
----Alexander Hamilton and James Madison,
The Federalist Papers No. 51 1788

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/fed/blfed51.htm

Men arn't so controls are.

I'm taking money from the mouths of my own family to do this, but I'm in for $10 towards the "Help Carl Emmigrate to Cuba" fund.

There is no country where communism has been successfully applied or maintained. The maintenance of communism demands gulags and concentration camps and summary executions.

For example, where is the Communist Paradise that was to have been born of the defeat of the U.S. in Vietnam? After the war, the U.S. has left Vietman severely alone. No evil American corruption there. Yet it is a cesspool. Everyone is poor, orphans roam the streets either begging for money, or sleeping with pedophiles. And you can't speak out even to say how corrupt the system is or how the government ought to be be taking care of the problem, or you will go to the "re-education" camps or be summarily executed.

Communism is not evil as a philosophy. But great evil is born from it's application and maintenance. It is indisputable. Why else would people risk their lives crossing oceans to escape? I don't see anyone risking their lives to leave America or any other capitalist country. Why is that?

America is not perfect. No country is. But the best we can do as a society is place as little restriction on the individual as possible without undermining a societally dictated rule of law.

Carl,
Too bad, Da Goddess was talking to you without me nearby the other day. Had I known, I would have joined her: I was standing with the rest of PWs. I actually grew up in the former Soviet Union. So, if you up to it, we will have a collection for your one-way ticket to Cuba. If you come back sooner than in 2 years, you'll have to return double the cost of the ticket. Otherwise, it is free for you.
Good luck, tovarishch.
Eric.

You can get as complex as you want with the arguments for and against communism, or whether or not communist nations are "really" communist. In the world of engineering, things need to work.

All I need to know about it is that every single nation in history that has organized itself around Marxism has ended up as a poverty-stricken totalitarian hellhole that has imprisoned or killed off large numbers of its own citizens, and set up barriers--including concrete walls and death zones--to keep its people from fleeing their nation like animals running from a burning forest.

This has been true regardless of race, culture, language, history, geography, resources, or any other variable. Nations like Korea and Germany, split down the middle and sent along two different paths, are almost textbook lab experiments with obvious results.

At some point, even the dimmest bulb would have to get the idea thet maybe something is wrong with the basic concept, and maybe it's time to stop trying.

If a doctor kills every patient he has ever treated, the fine print on his diploma doesn't really matter any more.

Me.. I'd rather buy seven two way flights so folks can go see their kids/spouces/family/etc at Walter Reed. He wants to go to Cuba all he has to do is drop by the Cuban Embassy and defect.

i'm in for 10$. go carl go!

it's sad about cuba. the stats about the drop in sugar production. communism saps the peoples ability to live. very slowly, they do nothing. and the society dies. so really, communism does work. everyone becomes equally destitute.

i think i like babalu.

nice post joanie.

I was going to add my two cents, but strangely, I feel so inadequate now. So I will only say... Great post goddess. God bless that "not a great intecllect"-mind of yours.

I only came on this site through Lt-Smash.us but after reading the above I'm willing to chip in a few dollars to help send Carl to Cuba as well. I doubt he will take up our offer because god forbid a person having to live by his rhetoric.

Just to throw a granade into the debate; I know of a communist type society that has lasted for over a century and is very prosperous. Bishops Hill in Il. or Missouri (I forgot which). Of course it is also a very religious community (Amish)who believe that the gates to heaven are through hard work and simple living. I find this the ultimate irony, the only communist "states" that work are religious in nature. Maybe Carl should have someone drive him and his family to Shelbyville, Il were he can join the simple communist and religious life.

Another semi-successful communist society were the Shakers. If only they believed in making babies they might still be around today (yes I know that there are a couple of Shakers still alive). Again, communism works when the religion emphasizes hard work. By the way, in all of these cases slackers get kicked out of the community.

PS Spelling out Il. gets a questionable content warning, weird

Did I read that right? Carl would love to go to Cuba, and would happily take a one way trip there, if only the funds are raised to take along seven family members? Oh, I can see how this would play out.

"Okay, airfare for 8 collected!"

"Well, you can't expect us to move to the Carribean Worker's Paradise and leave all our posessions behind!"

"Okay, we raised enough money to ship a cargo container down with your stuff."

"Well, you don't expect us to load it ourself, do you?"

"Okay, we've raised funds for a moving company."

"What about once we get there?

Carl appears to be one of the "Let me tell you how to be a good communist for me" type of guys. Carl, I recommend you become a televangelist. That profession works better for people like you in America.

Wow! Look what I come back to find!!! This is great! The conversation I've always dreamed of!!

Ground rules: I will not respond to name-calling (name-calling shows lack of a cogent argument, IMO), to people proclaiming to know my experiences better than I, oversimplications and paternalistic drivel. (so far, that narrows it down significantly) Not that you don't have the right to say whatever you choose to, simply my time is of the utmost importance. I am father of 4, a leader in 3 different orgs. and I have just taken on a third part-time job. So there will be periods during our discourse where I will disappear from this board.

So on to the posts!!

Actually since sending me and immediate family is the hot subject now, I'd like to start there. First of all, me going to Cuba was not my idea. As I had stated previously, our goal as communists is to realize worldwide communism. From a stategic standpoint that means that communists have an obligation to realize communism in their own country. Since I was born here, (in fact my ancestor were here before any of you) it is my duty as a communist to continue to organize around the communist agenda inside my own borders. That being said...

I repeat, I did not come to this board, or any other board for that matter demanding to be sent to Cuba. Sr. Prieto offered to send me to Cuba and I accepted. As has been the case from virtually ALL of you who have offered ticket to Cuba, once I agreed to accept those tickets, preconditions were then thrown in the mix.

"You have to renounce your citizenship." "You have to liquidate your asset." "You have to stay there for two years." "You can't take any money with you." ?????

Okay, I will accept the conditions that are within reason, but if we are setting conditions then I have a condition for all of you.

Every one of you who offered to take up a collection, or has offered money for my relocation has to publicly denounce terrorist acts from the U.S. government and Cuban exiles living in the U.S., AND publicly petition the government to cease desist all acts of terrorism against Cuba. Also petition the U.S. to cease funding and supporting terrorist groups INSIDE of Cuba.

And if you would petition them to vacate the base at Guantanamo Bay that would be nice too!

Also, you will have to petition the Cuban government to open its country to allow me to reside there, since I am not seeking political asylum.

New to the post.

I just can't stop laughing at Carl the 5th COlumnist. 1st. Please admint that Communistm has killed more people than any World War. Then we'll discuss your version of reality.

Kennedy failed the Cuban people at the Bay of Pigs. And that's the shame of it.

If you actually go, with all the nonsequetor preonditions. Please say hello to Ellian Gonzales, You know the little Cuban exile whose mother died to get him to the Freedom of the U.S. Then the Left sent him back to his paternatl Father. The one that never married his mother.

OK.. we Renounce FARQ, SANDINISTAS, FLMA, Khymer Rouge, and ALL your victims of Democracy. Unfortunately, you won't admint my first assertion that Communisim is responsible for more deaths than all the World Wards combined.

Uncle Joe would be proud of a seditions SOB like you. deologically speaking. You are Bankrupt.

Before Carl jumps all over the typos in the above post. Let's see if he can debate honestly about communism and the fact that every attempt has ended up with... Capitalism. Of course only after they murdered millions to control the masses.

Carl, just like all the other leftists I know (in Boulder, CO where I live you can't throw a rock...) invoke the "imperialist west killed x millions" whatever.

This may have once been true since imperialism, like communism, is a system that can only maintain economic strength by draining wealth from an ever expanding list of sources (victim countries/throw-away populations). But hisorically western imperial powers came to the realization that this is an unsustainable process because a) the number of accessible wealth sources is finite, and, b) the actual monetary cost of imperial control is very high and the ratio of benefit to cost decreases very quickly.

Former western imperial nations eventually concluded that their wealth could grow via mutual trade, and they didn't have to spend huge sums on military control (plus, trade is much less messy than warfare, and more palatable to one's own population). This is why today's leftists demonize corporations and free trade (such as it is), because they have to bitch about SOMETHING, and there really is no modern equivalent to historical imperialism (except in contemporary Islamo-fascism, but they won't go there...).

I encourage Carl to stay in America, and blather loudly about how great he thinks communism is. After all, without constant reminders of how dangerous such stupidity is, people become comfortable and lazy, and therefore ripe to succumb to the false allure of "the worker's paradise".

Carl wrote: "Ground rules: I will not respond to name-calling[...]to people proclaiming to know my experiences better than I, oversimplications and paternalistic drivel."

I don't know who is telling you they know your experience better than you, and I don't even know WHAT you mean by paternalistic drivel. But oversimplification? Really, that reason is just silly.

Why are you afraid of simple questions? If you know the question is more complicated, explain why. If the question is inherently biased - such as asking, "why are you a feline?" - then correct it. I can't speak about the others here, but I have a humanities degree - I was formally trained to follow crazy philosophies. I'm sure that I'll be able to follow any logical arguments you make. And I'm sure that many others here could as well.

But if your beliefs require complicated, lengthy explanations, maybe you *should* be afraid to answer. To do so might endanger your status as a representative of the proletariat, the common man...the Worker. You might out yourself as a bourgeois intellectual who can only argue with people if you are sure to be on higher footing than them. Goodness be, don't let the Workers know that you have recieved an effective education because of Imperialist Capitalism.

Seriously, just answer the question: Why do so many people try and flee from Cuba, China, North Korea, and why did so many people die trying to leave the former USSR?

Carl,
Just a quick point. My precondition of you staying there for at least 2 years has only 1 goal: you should not be a tourist there, but actually try to live a normal life there.
I am not going to ask our Government to change its policy toward Cuba, because I agree with it. Well, maybe trade could actually help to bring down Castro's regime, but that's arguable.
As for you not asking for a political asylum in Cuba, why not? Are you not persecuted as a Communist in this country? If not, I am glad you can enjoy the liberty this country offers. Just remember this the next time you or your friends call it "fascist".
Eric.

If you prove to have talent and ability beyond those whom you work with, you will be rewarded accordingly (read: promoted)and encouraged to seek a position/profession that best suits your ability/ambitions.

Promoted to what? Rewarded how? To be rewarded, you have to actually get something different, not just the same old thing with a new title.

You ignore the reality of the world. My first job, back when I was a pimply 16, was working food service at the San Diego Zoo. Unfortunately, it was a union job... Teamsters even. So I joined the union thinking the job was worth it. After two years on that job, I vowed to never work a union job again!

I am a hard worker, always have been. While at the zoo, a good friend and I became known as the best "closer" team there, because, not only did we work our butts off doing the job better then expected, we didn't complain about it the whole time (damn some people used to moan the whole time while cleaning). What did we get for it? Nothing other then a kind word from our immediate supervisors. Could we get promoted for hard work? Not if someone else were hired before us.. everything was based on time on the job. That complete lack of incentive just destroyed my desire to work hard after awhile.. which is exactly what would (and does) happen to most people under a communist system. Why bust your butt when the slackers around you get the same pay for a fraction of the effort?

Communism sounds great on paper.. but it'll NEVER work in reality. Human behavior/desire will see to that.

Communism is hardly a new comcept, and is one that has been proven, time and again, does not and cannot work

Communism certainly is not a new concept, however your proclamation that it has not worked is simply not keeping with the facts. The entirety of human history was communistic in structure up until the rending of society into classes. Needless to say, humankind thrived and flourished for 10’s of thousand of years under such system.

Pack your bags, pick up the kids and wife and hop on a plane to Cuba or China, then ask for political asylum because communism is the best ideology in the world. Dont talk, DO IT. If not, you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

I acknowledge your challenge and your charge of hypocrisy, and I reject both for reasons previously stated. If and when I move, I will do so on my own terms, in my own time. This my final comment on this subject.

Funny how every single foreigner that has "countless" interactions with Cubans (living IN Cuba) never hears any of the complaints and gripes and anti-castro anti-revolution sentiment these same Cuban express on a daily basis to other Cubans

Your assumption that I have “never” heard of complaints of the anti-Castro, anti-revolution dissidents is dead wrong.

Why weren't any of the countless dissidents allowed to go and speak? Why arent people like Oscar Elias Biscet and Rivero allowed to go and speak their opinions and thoughts? Tell me, why is that? And tell me, why are there prisoners of conscience on the island?

You know as well as I do that these dissidents you mention are actually terrorists who are funded by the CIA/FBI/NSA who have been publicly tried and convicted. The evidence of their guilt of these crimes has been revealed in a number press releases and conferences.

And why is the European union, amnesty international, the UN and countless other human rights organizations always crying foul at the Cuban government?

Actually the above named groups have always cried foul on the U.S. as well. In fact, they have cried foul on virtually every nation on the planet. Nothing unique about crying foul on Cuba.

Please man, if you dont touch bottom, dont jump into the water.

???

This is RAMPANT in cuba. i suggest you venture
over to Cubanet or Net for Cuba international where independent journalists - actual Cubans living IN the island - report on these argicultural stupidities on a daily basis.

…none of which are independently verified. Look, I am well aware of what revolutionary Cubans call the “gusanos” living on the island. I am well aware that these are the former ruling class Cubans who lost their ability to subjugate the masses when the revolution happened. I am well aware that these are the former supporters of the puppet regime of Bastista, including the so-called independent journalists at CubaNet. This is why there is no identifying information on the website.

But now my curiosity is piqued. How exactly did you come to live in the U.S.?

Sugar. Cuba now IMPORTS 70% of its sugar. Look it up. The once leader of the worlds sugar industry is now having to import sugar for its own needs. Those agrarian reforms your comrades Che and fidel put into place didnt work. And never will.

First of all I asked for a industry in which production is down as you had put it. That means for example, using the example of the sugar industry, that you would have to list what pre-revolutionary levels of production were against what post-revolutionary levels. Then you would have to cite your sources. And I would appreciate it if you could reveal with countries are exporting goods to Cuba against the 40+-year U.S. imposed embargo.

Yes, but the debate at hand here is the lauded communist ideoloy and the workers paradise, remember?

Perhaps in your mind. But in case you forgot, you did try to present this as a problem germane to communism and that is what I am addressing. We haven't even begun to talk about the death and destruction and the assbackwardness of capitalism. I’m saving that for later.

Oh, really carl? Let me ask you, how many Cubans have you actually ever met, in person, in your life? How many have you spoken to?

I would approximate 150-200. How many do I actually know, like know, know? About 15-20.

Carl, I dont know where you get your information from but, um, there is no such thing of private ownership of anything in Cuba.

I get my information from the Cuba government and the people I’ve spoken with in Cuba.

It all belongs to the state. ALL OF IT. the government tells you where you can live, who you can live with and for how long you can live there. And even a mere whisper of any dissent or opinion contrary to the official government policy gets you booted out of your home, fired from your job, ration card seized and perhaps even encarcerated.

Not according to the Cubans I correspond with, nor the countless Americans who travel to Cuba every year nor the annual caravan that goes in defiance of the blockade. I guess I have to make decision here. I can trust my own eyes and ears; I can trust those comrades who have traveled to Cuba numerous times, I can trust my own contacts in Cuba; OR I can trust you. I’ll need time.

Scott,

The call for me to move to Cuba is nothing more than a visceral reaction to someone with an opposing view. Obviously, no thought went to how much time and effort and how monumental such a move would be. Since I'd be going against what I have planned out for myself for the next 40 years by suddenly uprooting and moving to an entirely different country, I figured the least you could do is help make the transition a little smoother.

By the way, who the hell is Cecil?

You say that capitalism has ruined the communist ideal.

(((Scouring my previous posts for confirmation...not found.))) Can you show me where I actually said that??!!?! Thanx in advance.

Eric,

There will be a demo on January 20th. I will be there. Hope to see you there.

John,

In case you haven't noticed this western civilization spends more on its military then the next 11 countries combined. It spends trillions of dollars on "defense". If that isn't "huge sums of money on military control" then there is no such thing.

You know as well as I do that these dissidents you mention are actually terrorists who are funded by the CIA/FBI/NSA who have been publicly tried and convicted. The evidence of their guilt of these crimes has been revealed in a number press releases and conferences.

I see. So typewriters and papers and books are weapons of mass destruction in Cuba now, right? Because that is the evidence castro put forth agisnt most if not all the dissidents in question. You spew the party rhetoric and propaganda most profoundly. Stalin would be proud of you, comrade.

Actually the above named groups have always cried foul on the U.S. as well. In fact, they have cried foul on virtually every nation on the planet. Nothing unique about crying foul on Cuba.

Once again, we are not talking about the US, we are talking about the workers paradise.

…none of which are independently verified. Look, I am well aware of what revolutionary Cubans call the “gusanos” living on the island. I am well aware that these are the former ruling class Cubans who lost their ability to subjugate the masses when the revolution happened. I am well aware that these are the former supporters of the puppet regime of Bastista, including the so-called independent journalists at CubaNet. This is why there is no identifying information on the website.

Hehehe.I was wondering when you were going to pick this one off the shelf. You are well aware of absolutely anything you want, except, of course truth. This standard "bastista" line gets old, is old, has been old, and will still be old next time you haveto resort to use it becuase you have no basuis in fact for your arguemnt.

First of all I asked for a industry in which production is down as you had put it. That means for example, using the example of the sugar industry, that you would have to list what pre-revolutionary levels of production were against what post-revolutionary levels. Then you would have to cite your sources. And I would appreciate it if you could reveal with countries are exporting goods to Cuba against the 40+-year U.S. imposed embargo.

I dont have the time to eductae you. You have "sources" right? Yu have access to the internet, right? Look it up. It's all true. And another thing, EVERY other country in the world exports goods to Cuba. Every single one. The US is the onluy one with an embargo. And yet still, people go hungry in Cuba and lack basic necessities. Of course, little omnipotent tourists such as yourself and your fellow castro circle jerkers travel to Cuba and have every amenity in the book available while a Cuban native isnt even allowed to enter your hotel.

I would approximate 150-200. How many do I actually know, like know, know? About 15-20.

Wow. 15-20. Imagine that.

I get my information from the Cuba government and the people I’ve spoken with in Cuba.

Correction, you get your MISinformation from the Cuban government and those few CDR and Ministro Cubans that government ALLOWS you to talk to. How pathetic you are, truly.

Not according to the Cubans I correspond with, nor the countless Americans who travel to Cuba every year nor the annual caravan that goes in defiance of the blockade. I guess I have to make decision here. I can trust my own eyes and ears; I can trust those comrades who have traveled to Cuba numerous times, I can trust my own contacts in Cuba; OR I can trust you. I’ll need time.

Well, you know, sounds like your feeble mind is quite made up already. And obviously it is so full of lies, propaganda and dogmatic maure that I assume there's no room for the reality.

Look, any American "group" that travels to Cuba, like, say, the Pastors for Peace, are manipulated by fidel for his own purposes. You know it, they know it, and everyone else knows it. Why didnt the Pastrs for Peace caravan meet with dissidents? Why didnt they meet with people who peacefully - and legally according to Cuba's consitution - opposed the government who were subsequently thrown in jail? Your comrades are using you and you are allowing yourself to be used. Que poco hombre eres.

I almost feel sorry for you Carl, but then I think of your daughters and my heart breaks for them. I cant imagine having a father who willfully misleads himself and his family based on a self-absorbed, holier than thou need to further an ideology that man has rejected time and again.

Im done with you and this "debate." It's impossibele to argue with someone with a self contrived reality. I will say this, you know nothing of Cuba and her people. You know nothing of thier daily struggle to survive and crawl from beneath the jackboot of your beloved beared dictator.

You can say that every single Cuban you have ever talked to loves fidel, but that will be verified and debunked soon enough. The long lines of Cubans waiting to piss on his grave will tell.

Have a nice deluded life, Carl.

Seriously, just answer the question: Why do so many people try and flee from Cuba, China, North Korea, and why did so many people die trying to leave the former USSR

I do not purport to know the details of each one the abovementioned countries and in neither one of my previous post did I so much as hint at such. I am prepared to answer the Cuban question but to get details on the others would take time.
Cuba is quite simple. Those who are fleeing are from the former ruling class in Cuba. Having fought on the side of Bastista on behalf of the U.S. and having lost, they are attempting to flee the shame of aiding and abetting their former slavemaster.
In order to research the other countries, I need precise information in the form of examples of people fleeing. Thanx in advance.

One last thing:

Cuba is quite simple. Those who are fleeing are from the former ruling class in Cuba. Having fought on the side of Bastista on behalf of the U.S. and having lost, they are attempting to flee the shame of aiding and abetting their former slavemaster.

This argument would have held some water maybe 20 years ago, carl. Fact of the matter is that the few "Batista" supporters that managed top leave Cuba did so in the early sixties, the remianing ones were systematically eliminated at La Canaña at the infamous "Paredon" where Che and fidel had them killed. The people fleeing Cuba now WERENT EVEN ALIVE when Batista was is power.

You may be able to fool some limosine liberals with that rhetoric, but not those who know and lived the reality.

Nice try, though.

Sr. Prieto,

I am glad that we had this discussion. Sorry you have to leave so soon.

I was hoping you could give us some background on how you got to the States.

Also, in a previous post I was laying the foundation for what I hoped would a discussion about capitalism. In the post I stated: Just wondering if you felt the same way about Christianity and capitalism since, using your logic, they are responsible for the death of 10's (if not 100's) of millions of Native Americans and Africans.

I was hoping before you left, you could give your opinion about the annihilation of the native population and the enslavement of African people and who these events were key to the success of capitalism in North America.

The people fleeing are the descendents and sympathizers of the Bastista regime.

Sorry I was concise enough.

Carl,

The fact that Christianity may have been responsible for many deaths and that the native Americans were basically anihilated by the influx of europeans - I dont believe capitalism as you describe it existed back then - doesnt take away from the fact that Stalin and his Marxists brethren - including your pal fidel - were responsible for the deaths of millions.

The Christian church has changed since those dark days. And the US has attempted to make - however meager they may be, considering - reparations to the native Americans. Commuinism, however, at least the way it is practiced in Cuba and China, has not changed a bit. It is still repressive - it cant NOT be, else it would not exist.

In any case, Im celebrating the holidays with my family. Practicing my religion and cultural mores as I choose to, thanks to the magnanimity of this country.

Celebrating Christmas in Cuba was illegal until 1997, when fidel saw fit to use the Pope's visit and to allow my people to celebrate the birth of Christ as propagnada for his faultering and failing revolution.

Carl,

Thank you for answering the question, even in the limited fashion that you did.

Let me get more to the point, since you didn't have all your facts on hand. Why did the Russians shoot their own citizens when they attempted to cross the Berlin Wall? My theory? Crazy as it may seem, I thank few people wanted to stay! Why on EARTH would an egalitarian government shoot its OWN citizens when they tried to leave the country?

Look, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are a Communist because you care about people. If so, that is wonderful. But look around. No one in this country is hindered from helping the poor. If you want to help raise up people in need, go for it! Our Capitalist Democracy has enough money to support you. If you want the worker to get a better shake, go for it. Our Capitalist Democracy affords you the freedom to speak out on their behalf. As long as you don't try to take over and remodel the sandbox that allows us this discussion in the first place, urge people all you want.

The difference between here and, say, Cuba, is that no one has to believe you. If you want people to agree with you, you have to convince them, and begin the change from the inside out. This is a true failing of any Communist nation. You cannot force people to selflessly care about each other, you have to encourage it through investing in someone's life. Do that, you don't NEED a government forcing people to live for one another, or a system designed to do this no matter what the people under it want. It will happen despite anyone's best effort to stop it.

Carl,
Jan 20 is Thursday, thus I will be working.
Everything you say about Cuba reminds me of what some naive people like you were saying about the Soviet Union. They were usually shown on Soviet TV. At that time I could not really believe that they seriously believed that crap. I guess I was wrong. There was even one guy who asked for political asylum in the Soviet Union. His name was Arnold Lokshin. After appearing on TV a couple of times he disappeared from public view. I am curious what happened to him and his family? Have you heard of him?
As for big step of emigrating to another country, trust me, it is not that terrible. Depends on the country you are going to, of course. So, I emigrated from the Soviet Union to the USA, and you are going to emigrate from the USA to Cuba. Let's compare notes after you settle there.
As for a little face-to-face debate, I am sure the last Saturday was not the last time when we were on the opposite site of a protest (before you emigrate to Cuba, of course). So, we'll meet. Just ask for me.
Eric.

The point I am making here, Sr. Prieto is that if the problem, as you have articulated it, is murder and repression, then certainly you must be against capitalism and Christianity since there is no comparison in terms of death toll and sheer barbarity.

You claim the Christian church has changed. I say it is the same as it was 450 years ago. The Christian church’s contribution in the enslavement of black people and eradication of the Native was and is a racist interpretation of scripture. Natives, according the church, were nothing more than savages and blacks were the descendents of Ham, who was cursed by God. In both instances, it was the divine right of whites to impose themselves on these people. The church has never renounced that teaching. Today, the church uses euphemisms to mask its racist teachings but the result is the same: 9:00am Sunday morning remains the most segregated hour in America.

And was the slave trade capitalist in nature? Absolutely. Capitalism is the exploitation of labor and public resources for private gain. Nothing has been more capitalistic than the slave trade.

If it were not for these two events, there would be no “capitalist democracy” in America or anywhere else for that matter.

In relation to the “reparations” for Native Americans, this is sadistic joke. You rape, sodomize, murder, pillage and plunder the original inhabitants of a nation, set up treaties with the survivors, none of which you honor, relegate them to the most desolate regions of the land and call that “reparations”?

Wow.

J-P,

I assume that when you say you cannot force people in to a belief, you believe that this “capitalist democracy” did/does not force itself on anyone. However I must ask you to consider black people and Native people as human beings and to consider the fact that they were forced into your capitalist democracy.

In relation to the atrocious behavior of government I must ask you to consider the atrocities of your government in Tulsa OK in 1921, in Rosewood, FL in 1921, in Waco, TX, in Ruby Ridge, Philadelphia, PA in 1985. Consider the killing and brutalization of unarmed citizens by police departments and agencies across the nation. Consider the incarceration of U.S. citizens for politically opposing the government.

Eric,
I would imagine that as a white immigrant, your transition into the US has been a smooth one. This is not the case for our black immigrants. Enjoy your status.

In relation to news propaganda, the U.S. has the market cornered. The illustration I like to use is the story of the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. I don’t know if you are familiar with him, but he is one of the most beloved “African American” leaders in our history here in America. He was murdered and government blamed it on James Earl Ray. In the mid-nineties, a jury ruled that James Earl Ray was more than likely NOT the murderer of MLK. Further, they ruled that the government conspired to have MLK murdered.

Now, in a nation that has a holiday commemorating the life of MLK, has schools named after him, and invokes the “I have a dream” speech at every turn, you would think that this would be on every major network news station.

However there was a virtual blackout of this development.

According to the lawyer who tried the case it made to one prominent newspaper, and in that instance, it was relegated to the back section.

Welcome to the capital of propaganda.

Wow, what an interesting exchange. It is quite rare to get somebody to stand and deliver like this.
Carl's delusion is well documented here and makes it quite clear why the ideas of Communism are so discredited.
Murder and repression is obviously present in every society that ever existed. The question is which direction do societies base on capitalism and freedom move? Toward or away from such activities? Clearly communist societies have made no movement away from such activities accept where they have fallen apart and yielded to freedom. The citations of forced imprisonment are all that is required to demonstrate this. I will hold the US's history on opression up against any communist nation you would care to debate. My favorite of course would be Pol Pot's wonderful peoples paradise.
The assertion that "the" church has not changed in 450 years is beyond ridiculous. I can't even see debating it. The Catholic church has obviously changed and their has been massive movements in opposing thought in the past 500 years. Your statement is completely absurd. The reformation, protestantism, and a 1000 other things have happened. Don't be ridiculous.
That slave trade was a horrible evil bequeathed to us by imperialist Europe is clear. That the principles our country was founded on were victoriuos in the end after Civil War and through constant social evolution since is a vindication of the American ideal not a damnation. The direction has been constant improvement.
Carl's limited and self selected definiton of Capitalism is consistent only with Marxism. If you define the terms then I'm sure everything looks awful. Capitalism is not use of labor and "public" resources for private gain. Labor itself is private individual's seeking gain not some ambiguous feature of the environment. As Marx would define it every resource is public but Capitalism takes a stance that property is private. That is a fundamental difference in the system.
It's interesting that I'm a huge advocate of communism. That's the way I run my family short of the violence. I think it works quite well giving to each according to his need and requiring from each according to his ability. My 7 year old now has to take out the trash and do the dishes. In exchange he gets his every need taken care of as I see fit. Luckily I live in a Capitalist society where it's possible for me to do this.
I worked with Cuban refugees during operation Sea Signal back in 1994. I was a civil affairs officer working with the Cuban refugees who had been detained at G'tmo. The people were phenomenal. Compared with the Haitians they were educated, hard working, friendly and wanted nothing more than a better life. None of them seemed like ex-anything. They were doctors, lawyers, fisherman, laborers, they ran the full gamut. They merely wanted a chance to be free and succeed. None of them had any shame or apparent history of revolting against Castro. I suspect if they had they would have been in prison vice fleeing the country by raft. They were obviously not the dispossesed in Cuba. In my camp alone there were 5,000 people. There were over 20 camps (tent cities) ov varying sizes. I don't know the total number but it was in the 10's of thousands. These peoples pronouncement on Cuba, having lived there, was clearly that they did not prefer it.
I would ask you Carl to go walk in there shoes. Don't leave the country for good. Just go try it and see if there position has merit.
Everything you espuse is theoretical and bookish. Try it on for real. Conduct the experiment. Give it a try. Maybe it will change your ideas or merely modify them. Maybe you'll be able to advance the theory and fix it's fatal flaw. Bring your knowledge back here and make a difference.
I believe that what you will find is that Communism sounds fair (read beautiful) but feels foul where as Capitalism/Freedom is the opposite.
I believe Winston Churchil said that, "Democracy, it is the worst system except for every other system we know of," will ring true to you after escaping theory for reality.
I'm in for $50 if you're willing to go live there and stay for 2 or 3 years. Keep your property, citizenship, etc. Oh, and don't become part of the machine. Just stay a typical citizen there living like every other.

P.S. I know understand all the typos as this is so small on screen.

CJ

I love how you all continue to deny the reality of life for native, african and people of color under the yoke of white supremacy (which is part and parcel of capitalist "democracy") in America.

How does one move away from its violent past without even acknowlegding its violent past? When has there even been a public denunciation of the racist doctrine put forth by the Christianity and the American School by the church or the government?

In case you haven't heard Catholic school boys are being molested left and right while you claim they have "changed". Changed from what? Killing blacks and natives to molestation?

I also love how delusional you all are about their governments actions in foreign lands, actions that disprove your assertion that you have moved away from the legacy of violence that your country was founded on.

I also love how you all extol the "success" of capitalism in a country were 43 million children are without healthcare, half of the veteran population are homeless, the native population has been virtually wiped out, reduced to less 1% of the total population, rampant starvation, STD's at almost epidemic levels, police brutality, bankruptcies, divorces and an overall devaluing of human life (at least human life that isn't white and American).

Has anyone pointed out to Carl two great Communists who now live in the USA?

Dr. Sergei Khrushchev and everyone's favorite Commie, GORBY? Yes, even Mikhail Sergeyevitch lives in the Presidio neighborhood of San Francisco, a wonderfully DECADENT Capitalist city!

Sorry Carl,

I have to put a stop to your wild accusation of "We wiped out the Native Americans". Neither Americans (Whites) nor European are responsible for wiping out over 95% of the Native American Population. The problem is the fact that the Native Americans from NA to SA were cut off from the main civilization for over 3,000 years. Thus their immune systems has changed and evolved into a different state making each races weak to each other once they come in contact. The problem was the Natives were not immuned to diseases that the Europeans were immuned to. They were walking diseases themselves and it contaminated the Native Americans which started killing them. The Native American's ideology of fighting this disease was "As long we are far from the White Man, they can't hurt us". Which was the wrong action to do since they spreaded the disease among their people which killed an estimated of 95% of the Native Population which ranges from 8M to 111M.

While these were the largest American massacres, there undoubtedly were numerous small ones. Moreover, many Indians were killed by vigilantes while local government looked the other way, or were murdered individually by settlers. Taking all the army-Indian battles and massacres into account, probably no more than some 3,000 Indians were killed in the years 1789 to 1898. Settlers and vigilantes likely killed a thousand more. Since many of these Indians were killed in pitched battles, it seems very unlikely that the number of Indians massacred outright by Calvary and settlers in the American West could have been more than 4,000, and was probably a good number less.

Lived in communist hungary for 8 years, before my mother got out with me in tow.

I visited every summer since.

From my youth I remember tanks in the streets every year on May Day. I also remembered that these were parades that rolled through empty streets. Nobody went to see the tanks. No one went into the streets to cheer the soldiers on. The soldiers did not look proud, but scared.

People had no pride in anything. Imagine that if you can. A NATION of people, with no goals. The men worked in factories. The women labored in fields. Everyone drank. There was a pub on every block.

We had 2 TV stations. 1 for news, 1 for shows. Both were 100% state run and monitored. 1 out of 10 homes had a television in the city. No one had one in the villages.

I remember toilet paper being a luxury.

Let that sink in... Toilet paper = luxury.

I remember my grandmother having to bribe the butcher to ensure we could get meat. What kind of meat? CANNED HAM. And by canned ham, I mean a big hulking can of SPAM.

I remember how happy a farmer in the village was when his pig gave birth to an extra piglet. The law required him to keep 2 breeders, and 4 for harvest. He had 5 that year. He raised the extra piglet for a year before he got caught. His punishment? He lost all of his pigs. Confiscated. You know by whom? The village's political officer. Who then handed out the meat to his family, and payed it as a tribute to his higher ups.

Oh well. It's not like crime wasn't rampant. It is human nature to want. Humans are more than willing to work towards bettering their lives. When that is not possible to meet your goals through legal means, ILLEGAL means are often used.

Communism WILL ALWAYS FAIL because it works against human nature. Capitalism embraces it.

Carl,What exactly will your contribution to this great utopian society be? Oh,I know someone has to wear the suits and appear one televusion shows,but what exactly a you useful for,what are you putting in the pot other than your minimal knowledge of marxism?

Interesting series of posts. I do have question for Carl. I am assuming that the current government in Cuba, for all of it's merits, isn't perfect. Would you care to point out any areas where the Castro regime is less than 100% successful in it's implemtation of the Communist ideal as understood by yourself?

Dont hold your breath, Bobo.

ViriiK,

I appreciate your revision of history however the fact that Europeans indiscriminately murdered Native Americans from coast to coast is disputed by no one but yourself.

I can name off the top my head half dozen well documented cases of the wholesale slaughter of men women and children Natives.

In my own history, the Natives of the Nipmuc Nation have kept impeccable records of our own encounters with the Euros since our first contact with them in 1642. At that time, our tribe alone, which was one of the smaller tribes, numbered 5000-6000. We are now less than 200.

You are correct that disease ravaged huge portions of the Native population (no where close to the numbers you cite) but what you’ve purposely omitted is the fact that Natives lived for at least 12,000 years on this land (yes I know European accounts tells you that we were only here for a few thousand years; perhaps another discussion for another time?) virtually disease-free until the landing of the European.

You forgot to mention that Gen. Amherst targeted the Native population for extermination by putting small-pox in blankets and sending them to Native “reservations”.

Yogi,

Appreciate your comments. What you described sounds exactly like what black people endured in the south for the better part of our history here in capitalist America. For us, in far too many cases, FOOD was a luxury. This is no exaggeration. Some people actually ate dirt, just so their stomachs wouldn't be empty.

Of course, I disagree that greed and exploitation is "natural" to human beings. I recognize them as traits in human nature, but as traits that should not be encouraged.

Though I don't think you really want to know, (come on, you don't really purport to know how knowledgeable I am of Marxism, do you? LOL!)however, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I am ready to serve communist society as I have served capitalist society; as a skilled, reliable worker.

Bobo,

Thank you for the question!

Two things of the top of my head:

1. The use of the death penalty

2. Racism (though not institutionalized like here in the U.S. it does exist).

Sr. Prieto,

Glad to see you are still here! I still am interested in knowing how you came to live in the U.S.

Should I hold my breath?

Racism is human nature. It is part of an "Us vs Them" mentality. It occurs in nations like hungary, where everyone is white.

If you do NOT believe it is human nature, observe children at play. By the age of 2, they start forming social groups, and these groups become mutually exclusive, to the point of hostility.

Forced labor is also a part of human nature.
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For communism to be successful, it must curb human nature.

The need to achieve being the major one. Humans do not work well in thankless tasks. They can not motivate themselves to work harder than the next guy for the same reward. They want more for their families than whatever the status quo is. (No matter how much they have)

On the other extreme is those who are lazy. These people will try to get the same product for less effort. Sometimes through innovation, often through depending on others to take up the slack.

Another aspect of communism that never ends up in the sales pitch: The initial collection and redistribution of resources. Here is the process that results in millions of deaths. Here is when someone (often with no knowledge on the subject) declares that 1 acre may require 5 workers, but 10 acres require only 30. The other 20 people are relocated (often involuntarily) to non-skilled factory positions, many times miles away from their families.

The factory workers were not allowed to return home for many years, for fear of escape. They were issued papers that would only allow travel within the city that the factory was located in. These were often the men of the family, and ONLY the men. The women were used as field labor. Women were scarce in cities.

The housing situation in the cities was very ... communal. Usually a kitchen and bedroom per apartment, a communal outhouse, and a communal water source. Heat was provided by a central furnace that supplied several blocks simultaneously. You may ask what the big deal is, as america had living conditions such as this. Yes, but not in 1970. And in america conditions improved. If you did NOT like the conditions, you could move.

The original owners of farm land required production to survive. They owned the land, and worked it either for themselves, or paid their workers in accordance with the labor they produced. (Slavery being the exception)

Under communism, the government set up collection centers for the objects produced. ALL goods were collected, according to quota. The people setting quotas often have no idea what is realistic. The farmers would give away all their earnings on a monthly basis. They would be re-imbursed with food coupons, or money. Depending on wether or not rationing was used.

While this may seem like a fair trade, you need to realize that corruption happened every time the goods changed hands. The farmers would skim off a bit for themselves, because otherwise they would starve. The men running grain elevators set a bit aside for themselves. The people unloading the trains took a bit. The people who stocked it took a bit. All the way through the process.

What happens when you get caught? You bribe the man who caught you. Because HE needs extra income too. If the bribe does not work, you and your family will just... disappear.

Even all this waste through corruption can't compete with the waste that occurs through inept handling, spoilage, and political whims. After all, what better way to quell ruckus from a rebellious province than to cut the food?

What makes a province garner this type of attention? Well, it would be someone running for a government position who was not backed by the state. Or perhaps a new faction is in power, and they don't appreciate what the previous guys did. And one of the previous guys may have come from your area.

As you work in a factory away from your family, often trying to meet YOUR quotas, you are motivated by fear that your family will suffer for your performance.

Your family has not heard from you for months. Your children are being raised by the local schools, which are barely more than political indoctrination centers that encourage children to turn parents in.
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And if you want to sell me on how good your government is, you have to do better than pointing out the faults of the one I already have. Everything I posted took place in 50 years. In those 50 years, it only got worse. By the end of the communist era in europe, most of the "black market" economy was extremely capitalist in nature, and the main source of quality of life increases.

Racism is human nature.

It was only a matter of time before we got to the core of conservative thinking. Racism is natural. Racism is right.

The Klan would be proud.

If you do NOT believe it is human nature, observe children at play. By the age of 2, they start forming social groups, and these groups become mutually exclusive, to the point of hostility.

Actually, I have a few children of my own and they did/have not formed any sort of "social group" based on race in any way shape or form. My children and all the children I have observed are oblivious to race until ADULTS make them aware of it.

Forced labor is also a part of human nature.

Forced labor (read: slavery) is denounced by every government and every rational thinking person the world over.

Carl’s text in italics

I love how you all continue to deny the reality of life for native, african and people of color under the yoke of white supremacy (which is part and parcel of capitalist "democracy") in America.

Last time I checked any statistics, minorities were doing pretty well for themselves. In fact minorities flock to this country; where to quote an man from India, “Even your poor people are fat.” All economic indicators show that life has improved over time for all groups in this country.

How does one move away from its violent past without even acknowlegding its violent past? When has there even been a public denunciation of the racist doctrine put forth by the Christianity and the American School by the church or the government?

Last I heard the teaching of US History is pretty damn critical, especially in government schools. As a country you can find endless material about our horrible history. Fortunately there is a lot of wonderful things that also went on.
I don’t’ think our government is responsible for Christian doctrine. We have a separation of church and state. What exactly is the American School?
I believe the Civil War was a pretty good start on public denunciation as well as continued writing and discussion ever since which has resulted in continuous improvement. What is the history of affirmitive action and civil rights but a public repudiation of racist policy of the past?

In case you haven't heard Catholic school boys are being molested left and right while you claim they have "changed". Changed from what? Killing blacks and natives to molestation?

How is the Catholic church and some criminal elements within it operating contrary to law and policy a damnation of Capitalism? How do you find the Catholic church guilty of killing blacks and natives a part of US Government and policy. Considering that Catholics were a persecuted minority and couldn’t even get elected president until JFK.

I also love how delusional you all are about their governments actions in foreign lands, actions that disprove your assertion that you have moved away from the legacy of violence that your country was founded on.

Oh, no. Everything we’ve done hasn’t been perfect and wonderful….Compared to whom? I’d say the US record on restraint and helping the world is a bit (sic) better than any country you can name. The Soviets and Chinese certainly don’t have a positive record in this regard. In fact the wonderful Soviets were more imperialistic than any nation in modern history. The Cubans of course can’t help themselves and other than exporting armed revolution to Africa while they were on the Soviet teat have been incapable of any kind of action at all.

I also love how you all extol the "success" of capitalism in a country were 43 million children are without healthcare, half of the veteran population are homeless, the native population has been virtually wiped out, reduced to less 1% of the total population, rampant starvation, STD's at almost epidemic levels, police brutality, bankruptcies, divorces and an overall devaluing of human life (at least human life that isn't white and American).

Half of the Veteran population is homeless? I don’t think so. I’m a veteran and know hundreds of veterans and not one of them is homeless. Nor have any of my associates ever mentioned knowing a veteran who was homeless. I’ve met homeless and they are predominantly suffering from mental illness. A few that I have spoken with have said they were veterans.

Where on earth do you get your statistics? I’d think you didn’t have access to the internet….(ha ha) I couldn’t find anything to substantiate your numbers but I didn’t check the communist parties propaganda web site either.

http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/FENR/fenrv12n4/fenrv12n4p108.PDF 81% of children are in very good or excellent health. For those below poverty 65%.
http://www.census.gov/prod/3/98pubs/cenbr981.pdf As of 1996 children who lack health care 14.8%, for poor children 23.3%. Of course lack of health insurance doesn’t necessarily mean lack of health care. Note, a graph in this document shows “Children Without Health Insurance: A Number on the Rise” It was around 8 million in 1987 and is below 11 million in 1996. Not surprising that the number increases in a growing population.
The American Indian population’s relative number is due more to immigration than constant murder of Indians. American policy toward native people is clearly shameful and a source of shame. Should we just disband and become communist because we committed an evil similar to those perpetrated by every other nation on the planet?
STD’s at epidemic levels? What are your numbers to substantiate an epidemic?
Police brutality? Compared to whom again? China, Iraq, whom? Last I checked we imprisioned police found guilty of this crime. That doesn’t sound like a government endorsement of this policy.
Bankruptcies are impossible in Cuba since you don’t have any property (public or private) to lose.
Divorces? I wasn’t aware that Communist countries had fixed the problem of divorce.
Yes, we devalue life. Where as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and of course your darling Fidel make Mother Theresa’s list of exalted humanitarian reformers.
You see, Capitalists understand that their system doesn’t deliver a Utopia. Capitalism is not a Utopian philosophy/mirage.
I’m not sure why you stay in such a horrible country when there are such good alternatives available.
Your arguments are as weak as your position. Get some guts, go test your hypothesis that communism is wonderful and cures all man’s ills.

Tell you what... you take my definition of racism.
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[b]Racism is human nature. It is part of an "Us vs Them" mentality. It occurs in nations like hungary, where everyone is white. [/b]
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You respond with

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[b]It was only a matter of time before we got to the core of conservative thinking. Racism is natural. Racism is right. [/b]
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In your response you revert to the "us vs Them" mentality by labeling me something that you are not.

Just take out "conservative" (the term you use to differentiate) and replace it with a racial epithet.

Thank you for making my point.

I did not state it was right btw. You inferred that.